via
http://jarandhel.tumblr.com/post/22330492987:
chasingcaribou:
Perhaps because I don’t feel I have created an entirely new hypothesis, I suppose. I elaborated on the potential reasoning behind a feeling, and pulled on discussions I’ve had with various people. So, I suppose for me it is not a new attempt to justify something, or explain something, or a struggle to. Not that that is really relevant.
It came across as you advancing a personal theory you just came up with, since you didn’t mention previously that this was based on discussions you’ve had with various other people in the past. That was what made it seem like bending over backwards to validate the claim.
I don’t feel this only exists among tumblr kin, but obviously our mileage varies in experiences of the various communities.
Where have you seen the claim that phantom/astral limbs cause pain/discomfort when intersecting with clothing or other physical objects outside of tumblr?
Is anyone saying, ‘I advise you not to wear this type of clothing if you feel that kind of discomfort.’? I have not seen that recommendation. Some people have said that they personally are more comfortable without certain articles of clothing, but what is unhealthy about their personal preferences? If it makes a person more comfortable to not wear a shirt, and the cause of this discomfort is benign (does not need medical attention) what is unhealthy?
Well, the little fact that society requires people to wear shirts. Feeding into the idea that having phantom wings might require you not to wear shirts, and that’s just fine because it’s a “personal preference”, is really contributing to making people less functional in society. ”No shirt, no shoes, no service” isn’t that new of a concept.
If you are comfortable, could you elaborate specifically on what is an unhealthy way of thinking?
1) The idea that phantom limbs interact with physical objects. It’s unhealthy to support this because there is no way for it to be literally true. Such a claim is on the same level as p-shifting. If someone made the claim that they could exert force on an object using their phantom limbs, you’d be fairly skeptical of that claim right? Well exactly the same type of interaction would need to take place for a physical object to exert force upon a phantom limb in order to hurt it.
2) The idea that phantom limbs plus clothing causes an overload in the brain of some kind that is interpreted as pain/discomfort. It’s unhealthy to support this because it’s easily shown to be not true when considering other types of phantom limbs or larger phantom bodies which would intersect with *both* clothing and the walls of the room they’re in. Phantom tails don’t cause this. Not even when people with them wear not only clothes but hang physical tails (artificial or taxidermy) off the rear of them, which certainly would result in a doubled sensation. Likewise with folks with phantom wings and wearing artificial fae, angel, dragon, or demon wings. That should certainly cause a doubled sensation. Tripled, if your theory is true and they’re wearing the harness over a shirt of some type. And yet wing-making has been a workshop at prominent otherkin gatherings:
http://kinvention.otherkin.net/Schedule.html3) Promoting the idea that this is normal/expected/just part of being otherkin leads fairly naturally to the idea that they can’t do anything about it. They’ll just have to avoid wearing full shirts, and any person or place or business that won’t accommodate that is being oppressive to their needs as otherkin. This is unhealthy both because, as I mentioned earlier, it will make them less functional in society and because it feeds into both the “otherkin are oppressed” meme so rampant here on tumblr and all of the worst stereotypes others have about the otherkin community.
And really, where does it stop? If it’s ok to have a “preference” of not wearing shirts because of phantom wings, how long till no pants because of phantom tails? How long till no anything because of phantom fur or feathers? For everyone who keeps saying that feathers are different, and using that as a justification for why this is claimed about wings and not tails, I’d hasten to point out that avians don’t just have feathers on their wings. Feeding into this just doesn’t lead in positive directions for either individuals or the community.
This argument is far fetched in both directions. Cloth has a particular kind of texture, air has a particular kind, and we’re using that to split hairs over people’s subjective experience of it?
I’m using it to point out that the “doubled” sensation you described would not go away with the removal of clothing, only be replaced by different doubled sensations. I don’t find that to be splitting hairs, I find it to be common sense.
I am not saying necessarily that this is a universal or common thing, just it is something some people have described before, and so it seems likely that what a lot of people here mean is not that their limbs are physical (which was the original implication),
I would point you to this reblog:
http://preussensgloria.tumblr.com/post/22308042182/jarandhel-while-i-understand-the-trans It very clearly makes the claim that the limbs are physically interacting with physical objects: “I’ve slammed wings against corners without thinking (And without even realizing my wings were around, in fact) and it has hurt quite a bit!” This is the kind of thing that’s being fed by this meme. And it’s patently not a doubled sensation, since it refers to corners rather than clothing. A physical object exerting tangible force against a nonphysical object. An extraordinary claim. But we’re all just supposed to smile and nod?
only that the certain type of sensation is uncomfortable, and they attribute it to their phantom limb experiences, and that it could be related to that, not only attributed to that.
And it can’t just be that they like being topless/naked/etc? Hell, I like being naked at home or in other clothing optional environments but it has nothing to do with phantom limbs, much less pain caused by them intersecting with my clothing. Alternately, again, how much of it is because they *expect* such experiences, because they’ve been told places like tumblr that it is normal/ordinary/part of being kin/to be expected? Or as a third alternative, how much of it is simply because they want to feel special? After all, they’re so cool/different/magical/obviously otherkin that their wings can *touch* things…
I guess this is such a big deal because I am supposed to be perpetuating an unhealthy way of thinking, and justifying it. So I would be appreciative to know exactly what I am perpetuating because I obviously don’t see it.
Hopefully, now you do. If not, I’m really not sure how to explain it with any more clarity than I have and I’ll open the floor to others who think they can.
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