Gnaaah!!!

[jarandhel]

Gods save us from Evangelical Elenari who want to turn their *species* into a legally recognized religion and then go proselytize it to help "lost" Elenari.

Comments

[jolantru.livejournal.com]

Oh good grief! :(

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Yes, this thread on ER is not exactly making me a happy Jarin.

[netdancer.livejournal.com]

Whiskey...Tango...Foxtrot?

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Check out the "Coming out of the closet" thread on Elven-Realities.

[per-akh.livejournal.com]

Lemme guess...Ahril?

~Solo

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

For once, no. Ahril, for all her faults, seems content to confine her evangelism to the already-awakened Elenari. This guy is just some random person who popped up on ER, I don't think he's even known by the "main" group calling themselves Elenari.

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

The main group?
There you already see everything that's wrong with that scene.

~Fei

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

It would be worth it just to see the ordained priests looking fabulous in their sacred black leather jackets and red sashes that set off their green eyes so attractively.

~Fei

[historychick49.livejournal.com]

Ha, yes. It's... really quite weird. And offensive. I'm still trying to figure out exactly WHY they want Elenari to be a legal religion, aside from somehow thinking this will help proselytize the lost.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

From the sound of it, proselytizing to the "lost" elenari seems to be exactly the reason. That and possibly some bizarre "freedom of religion" claim in order to try to be accepted outside of the otherkin community.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Or, more likely, specifically trying to set up a tax shelter.

Generally, anyone can set up a religious group; the only benefits to having a religious organisation recognised by the government amount to a) being able to legally officiate marriage ceremonies and b) being able to claim the specific 501(c)3 exemption in state and federal tax codes for being a religious organisation (meaning, no taxes--in the case of churches, it's an especially efficient way of money laundering, because churches are alone of 501(c)3 exempt groups not required to file special paperwork with the IRS--they just have to show they have tax-exempt status with a state government, and pretty much never have to file anything after that).

States do have their own requirements as to recognising religious groups for registration purposes. A common requirement is a minimal congregation size and evidence that regular religious meetings are in fact taking place, at least for groups that are not part of an established church with a formal ordination procedure. (In some states, even if you *are* ordained, you still have to prove there is regular religious worship in a congregation of a minimal size to remain recognised for state tax exemption purposes.) Some states require specific legal organisation as a religious corporation (California among them); until a recent state Supreme Court decision, all ministers in my home state had to obtain specific licenses from the state for $50 (ironically, a fundamentalist Baptist preacher ended up getting that one thrown out, as he insisted this was taking the mark of the Beast).

In the case of marriage ceremony officiating, there's plenty of legal ways to get around those requirements if you are part of a religious group without a formal ordination procedure or with under the minimum number of folks attending--and this is actually the tack the majority of neopagan groups (outside of OTO and some Wiccan groups) take. Pretty much, in states that allow notaries to marry folks, group leaders become notary publics; in states that don't allow "notary marriages", they go for ULC ordination; in states that don't accept either ULC ordination or notary marriage, they go for UU ordination (or occasionally Church of the Subgenius ordination).

Taxes...well, those get tricker. Again, because of the pain of trying to legally organise under the state laws regarding churches, I've known of pagan groups to organise as nonprofit LLCs for tax purposes. Generally, though, folks looking to specifically incorporate as a church for government recognition are doing it largely as a tax shelter (again, as I've noted above, it is incredibly easy otherwise to be ordained through alternative bodies; ULC ordination is free online, notary publics usually require a one-time bond with the state and $25-50 for licensure (and the rates are usually cheaper in states that allow notaries to perform marriages), CotSG ordination is $15, and UU ordination is probably the most expensive at the present time--and every state in the union will usually accept *one* of the first three, for purposes of officiating marriages).

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

...wow. They should try that here. In that, your country is really more advanced, here only the major brands of world religions are officially recognized as such. Again, differently grown structures, I find that endlessly fascinating. I guess, "Finally free of that European oppression" vs "Okay, that other type of Christianity is still noisy and we're tired of warfare". *g*
(Then again there's an advantage in that we don't have some of the psychotic cases able to call themselves churches. Scientology are still trying to no avail.)


...but, now I'm imagining a congregation of suit-wearing elves at an Elenari wedding, talking about the tax benefits of having pointy ears.

~Fei

[super special awesome gay elf icon from Duo]

[historychick49.livejournal.com]

And now, apparently, to develop an offline, likely worldwide community of Elenari. I'm presuming that the mention of "Safe-houses" applies to that, where Elenari (who feel threatened by Scary Humans(TM)?) can sort of claim sanctuary for a while until they get their lives back in order and find a more openminded place to live.

Or something like that. I don't know, it really seems like the instigator is... fangirl/boying over the idea?

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

You'd be surprised how common this kind of thing is in the community. Like someone else said, it appears to happen on these lists every three or four years or thereabouts. One of the reasons I'm so very much against it is that I've been there and done that. When I was new to the community, I ended up co-organizing something very similar (in the outreach respect, not the religion one) that went cultic and abusive very quickly. And that's without even having the fundie religious aspects thrown in.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

... four years. Why do I suddenly think that it's not a coincidence that is the exact amount of time it takes the population of a high school to completely turn over?

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Oh sweet mother of Grud... :P (And people honestly *wonder* why I'm not exactly active in the otherkin community anymore. People like this who've confused Jedi with Elenari are among these. (And odds are, this is being done for the tax benefits--churches make wonderful tax shelters.))

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

"As far as your satement about my 
beliefs as to one true human religion [Christianity], yes, I believe that. I believe 
also, that as far as at least the Tulari are concerned, belief in Ea 
and Des'tai is the one true religion. This is faith. I don't know 
what deity you uphold, but if you believe that it could be wrong and 
someone else could be write, then you do not have faith. I'm not 
saying don't be openminded, I listen to any who would delight me with 
conversation as to their own belief. But I believe in what I believe 
in, resolutly. I do not demand that all Elenari or even all Tulari 
believe this. But we should be united about the common factor of our 
beliefs."

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

....oh-KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY.

Not only are they trying to essentially convert Elenari into an Elven Religious Tax Shelter (tm) (otherwise, frankly, they would *not* be asking about the specific legal requirements to become a recognised religion--which, notably, vary from state to state, and primarily exist for such things as officiating marriages and tax exemption purposes; of *particular* note, the original poster's IP address points to an IP address in Tennessee and an email provider in Virginia, and I know for a fact TN is a "notary republic" marriage state--lots of folks in Gatlinburg running "marriage chapels" use the fact that notaries can legally marry folks in TN) but they've directly compared it to Christianity as the One True Faith (neither of which, I would note, is entirely accurate).

So we're not just dealing with people attempting to start an Elenari Church, but are apparently trying to set themselves up as Elenari Televangelists (complete with the obnoxious fundamentalism and the convenient use of 501(c)3 exemptions as tax shelters).

And yes, I can fairly safely say this is probably being done for the explicit purpose of *tax shelter* usage. In most states, the legal requirements for becoming a recognised religious group are sufficiently difficult (often requiring specific registration as a religious nonprofit organisation and/or documenting a regular congregation of a minimum number) that even most neopagan groups I'm aware of typically take one of three tactics--either having the group leader register as a notary (in states where notaries public can perform marriage ceremonies), registering as a "ULC ordained" minister (in states that recognise ULC ordination; some do not), or becoming ordained as a Unitarian Universalist pastor. I personally doubt there's enough people in the Elenari community *online* that would allow legal organisation for this, and there's no legit need for it unless someone's trying to set up a tax shelter or ordination mill.

Fucking *lovely*. (And something that makes me ironically glad that email from ER-Yahoogroups has apparently only been sporadically reaching my email, including pretty much the entirety of this thread not reaching my personal email just yet.)

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he's specifically in Knoxville according to his myspace page.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Yeah...and, well...how shall we say this...

There is not a hope in fucking *hell* he's going to be able to legally incorporate as a church there:

a) TN--in part thanks to quite a cottage industry of "marriage mills"--requires not only a documentable ordination process but religious incorporation. (It is also one of the few states where ULC ordination is not legally valid.)

b) Tennessee requires ministers of religious corporations or those solemnising marriages to be regularly "in the care of souls"--in other words, they have to have a regularly meeting, meatspace congregation somewhere in the state.

I seriously doubt there are 50 Elenari in the entirety of the *state*, much less 50 Elenari willing to go along with this hairbrained scheme. (Hell, he'd probably have issues in California with religious incorporation--and CA is practically the Delaware of religious incorporation and setting up your own church for fun and profit.)

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

You know, with what he said about believing Christianity to be the one true human religion, I'd almost lay money on this kid being AoG. What do you think?

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

AoG, or potentially Southern Baptist (or such a recent walkaway that he still has a lot of that internally). And yes, there is a LOT of that in Knoxville.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Aaaaand I just did a post on there to document just WHY his proposal is, to put it bluntly, so full of fail that the entire *fleet* of failboats may have just landed :D

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

....right.
Fundamentalist elves.
Fundamentalists elves who equal religion and species/race. One's heard of such things before, say, about 80 years ago in this general area of the world. Except there it wasn't employed by the people in question themselves.
*headshake*

~Fei

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Hell, we *still* have those in my part of the world.

Mind, they also tend to run around wearing *sheets*, using Bad Fantasy Name references like Grand Wizard and Grand Dragon, and burning crosses in people's front yards... :D

OH DEAR GOD, I THINK WE JUST FOUND THE ELENARI KU KLUX KLAN :D

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

...that is fantastic.

(With special modifications made on the hood to set off the ears?)

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly mods done on the hood. (ELF POWAH?)

[historychick49.livejournal.com]

ROFL

And the symbol could be a seven-pointed star. Though it might be a little awkward to set up to burn in the front yards of the Unbelievers. Or would that be the Vor'jen?

Well obvy

[syleniel.livejournal.com]

they aren't really Elenari.
""As far as your satement"
"it could be wrong and 
someone else could be write"

We can write. ROFL.

Re: Well obvy

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Considering some of the people who have been accepted as Elenari in the past (Adara springs to mind), I'm not sure that's a valid criteria.

Re: Well obvy

[syleniel.livejournal.com]

It was a joke, son. Laugh with me.
But if you want to be serious it, Adara had English as a second language. This youngin' (15 not 18) doesn't have that excuse.

Anyoo, whether he turns out to really have the Elenari signature / lived among the Elenari, he's still a naive 15 year old. I really don't think he's going to get around to starting his non-profit. Hopefully as a result of discussions on ER he'll gain some insight and lose some of teh stupid.

Re: Well obvy

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, he's 18. Yahoo profiles just don't automatically update ages, you have to do it manually. His myspace profile says he's 18 and says he's been in his current high school from 2004-present. I think he's demonstrated rather clearly that he's not smart enough to have been advanced enough grades to have started high school at age 11.

And yeah, hopefully he'll gain some insight. The realization that Ea was fictional seemed to start doing him some good. It remains to be seen how he'll respond to the people who reassured him that he can still validly worship The Source using the name Ea, or that Tolkein channeled his works. While both points may be valid, I'm not at all convinced that he's at the point to be able to work with them intelligently.

As for laughing, I was. I just prefer deadpan humor as a response. ;-)

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

We're lost ;_;
We don't know if we apply for 'Elenari' membership, and we don't remember any religion - we were probably still too primitive to come up with anything ;_; and now we all believe in other things. But we believe we have pointy ears, is that enough to be saved? <3

~Fei

[shimizu-system.livejournal.com]

SADFACE! We had our own culture! :( How can that be, we must all be the same!
Quick, let's read up on Elenari Religion(tm) and revise our memories!

~Souji

[historychick49.livejournal.com]

... And now, after he's been attacked by half the people posting here, he withdraws from the discussion on the Yahoo list. I guess he just can't take the heat.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

And the amazing part is, I specifically moved the heated portion of my comments over here to spare him from it.

[historychick49.livejournal.com]

Yes, I noticed that.

[draerendi.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't know...it sort of is a religion. :) But seriously you can't form anything if no one wants to join. The more fire works the more intrigueing it becomes. Some might think that some thing is really there if there is so much protest. So how about some intelligent debate with less emotion? I know how you feel but think a moment.

[faerieboots.livejournal.com]

*patpat*

Lots of folk have lots of foolish at age 18. Hopefully he'll grow out of his all-or-nothing thinking.

Although the conversations about tax shelters and freedom of religion and whether or not elves are citizens and volunteering to submit to a medical test to prove elfiness did kind of make me twitch.