Magical Question

[jarandhel]

I'm currently digesting a bit of material from a workshop on fire magic that I attended over the weekend, and I was wondering if anyone here would happen to have a working knowledge of southern conjure magic and a technique known as "seizing the serpent" (possibly "seizing the sun serpant" or "seizing the sky serpent") from that tradition? I may end up contacting the presenter directly with some questions about it, but I'd really like to get some outside perspectives and also verify that the information I was already given by this presenter is correct. (I like the guy a lot, I really enjoy his work, but I try to verify what I can independently as a matter of course. Trust but verify works in magic too.)

Comments

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

When you're talking on "Southern conjure magick" are you meaning like Southeastern US conjuring or more Mesoamerican or something else?

(There's some stuff done with serpent magick, but at least in Cherokee circles snakes (and in particular the rattlesnake) is associated with Thunder magick--Thunder People and nunnehi are known to wear live rattlers as jewelry, among other things, and a lot of stories dealing with Thunder People involve people having to put rattlers on as bracers, etc.

(That's about the only thing I know of personally on "serpent magick" other than stuff relating to Uk'ten' (basically the Cherokee equivalent to dragons, decidedly cranky and territorial--most stuff on Uk'ten' emphasizes more on how Uk'ten' is a threat to humans, on Asgaya Gigagei (Red Man, who is also Fire, who is also the same guy as Kanati) fighting Uk'ten' and prying out its seeing crystal (which has to be fed with blood from little animals monthly and big animals twice a year) and making hunting charms made from its scales, etc. and there is a story where Uk'ten' (among other snakes and serpents) were sent to kill the Sun during a drought (they actually got her daughter instead, Rattler specifically...when she was brought back from the Darkening Lands in a box, they opened the box and she flew out, hence why there are cardinals). Generally it's not considered a Terribly Wise Thing to mess with Uk'ten' magick.

The general idea that I get is that if he's messing with rattler magick this is closer to Thunder Magick, and "seizing the serpent" could either be binding or possibly treading along the closest that Cherokee magickal systems have to "left hand paths" (generally if you're doing something to help folks out, it's a Good Thing, if you're using magick out to harm someone who isn't actively harming you and yours, this is considered Not Cool and essentially a form of Bad Witchery). Lightning-struck tree stuff, for instance, can either be used in a good way (to venerate the Thunders; I do keep a lightning-struck tree branch because of my own connection to Lightning in particular) or in a bad way (there is a form of Cherokee cursing involving placing ashes from a lightning-struck tree on an enemy's property to curse them with bad luck--essentially targeting them by the Thunders, and this is considered a form of black magick).

As for Mesoamerican stuff, I've never heard serpents associated with the sun; closest things is Quetzalcoatl/Kukulcan, and his aspect is actually Ehecatl (Wind Serpent), not the Sun (that'd be Tonatiuh, if I recall my Aztec mythology right).

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Southeastern USA... Hoodoo, I guess is the correct term. I'm not especially familiar with it myself. It's a technique Orion was talking about involving reaching up into the air, grasping serpents that are seen as falling from the sky and associated with the sun, and bringing it down to quicken/ensoul a talisman. Does apparently also have connections with lightning, but I don't know much there.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

OK, yeah, hoodoo. Basically Southeastern US hedge magick, I'd even go so far as to say Louisiana/Alabama/Georgia/Mississippi area hedge magick (a bit farther south than KY). I'll admit I don't know a *ton* re hoodoo; more *some* of what hoodoo is based on, but the only thing I can really vouch for is the stuff from the Cherokee (and to lesser extent, Creek) contributions to hoodoo (don't know enough re Irish/German hedge magick or traditional African beliefs to note how they're flavouring things, though the stuff re associating serpents with the sky sounds more African than "Southeastern Native American" to me). The stuff re pulling 'em down reminds me of stuff in Cherokee belief on going to the Thunder People and wrapping serpents around you as jewelry (and getting powers from the Thunders), but there's other stuff mixed in with it (because, among other things, you tend to run into Thunder People and nunnehi and the like in caves and rivers).

[helen99.livejournal.com]

Conjure Magic is folk magic with heavy African influence, maybe some Native American as well (think New Orleans, Ozarks, Appalachia). See Conjure, Magic, and Power: The Influence of Afro-Atlantic Religious Practices on Slave Resistance and Rebellion (http://jbs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/32/1/84) - would would have to subscribe to see the article, but it appears to be a scholarly article on the subject. I haven't heard of the term "seize the serpent". Was he referring to a particular practice? (Snake handlers?)

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Could be snake handlers (though that would be odd to bring up in a discussion on fire magick; snake handling churches are essentially a particularly odd segment of "oneness Pentecostals") but I'm inclined to think this is probably something more from Southeastern-culture Native Americans (in particular, the story of Asgaya Gigagei and the uk'ten') or from Southern "hedge magick" (which is heavily influenced in about equal measure by African practitioners of traditional religions and Voudon, Southeastern tribes like the Cherokee and Miccosukee (Creek), and Western "hedge magick").

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

He said it was a technique from conjure magic, didn't get more specific than that. The process he described involved reaching up to grasp one (of many) serpent of fire falling from the sky, associated with the sun, and bringing it down through the stages of the witch's z (suwilow rune with the points representing first fire, then air, then water, then earth) to "quicken" or ensoul a talisman. "Fire mediated by air, (joined?) to water brings to birth earth." Part in parenthesis with question mark is my own addition of a word that seemed to have been omitted. Also assocites fire with spirit, air with mind and vision, water with soul and pattern, and earth with form and body.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

OK, the four directions stuff frankly sounds downright *alchemical* to me, or at least derived strongly from Western "root doctor" stuff (to give an example, most Native American systems had anywhere from five to seven cardinal directions). I'm reminded specifically of stuff in the Old Farmer's Almanac noting specific associations of (of all things) Zodiac signs to things like that. (Of all things, the Old Farmer's Almanac frequently *does* note old hedge magick practices as "folklore".)

So yeah, I'm *definitely* thinking this is from hoodoo or "Southern hedge magick" (as opposed to being from a single system like Cherokee magickal practices, magickal practices in Voudon, and so on) which is a mix of influences; unfortunately, I don't know enough about Southern hedge magick to state whether this is authentic or not. All I can note is what stuff sounds like to me (for all I know, this could be something in the "southern hedge magick gumbo", or the guy could be mixing and matching stuff of recent origin; both are possible, seeing as even "root doctors" in Eastern KY tended to mix Irish, Cherokee, and even some of the "deep South" hedge magick practices together).

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

My thoughts were going more kabbalistic, actually... it's a description of the manifestation of energy/potential (kether) through the idea of force (Chokmah) to the idea of form (Binah) and finally into actual force (Chesed)...

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===Most of the southern stuff is a form of hoodoo..West Virginia Appalachia form.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Ok, that's a bit more specific of an area to look in, then. :)

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

... this is all going to turn out to be oral-trad stuff that is going to be impossible to independently verify without meeting some of the people in the same line of transmission as well as the same tradition and actually getting to the point where they'd be willing to talk technique with me, isn't it? I should probably just email Orion...

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===Most likley...(grins) I have some texts that have some of the old folklore and such, and I am reasonably certain that Orion is not pulling this all out of thin air. He may very well have fleshed it out...and he has a LOT of contacts, both in this world and the otherworld...so it gets to be interesting.

===You can email him...but you know how it is when folks write me? Well...he makes me look prompt, and that every email is answered.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

I didn't think he was just pulling it out of thin air. (And yes, I get the pun.) I just try to verify everything I can when learning something from a new tradition. I already verified that what I thought was a mistake in the name of the rune he was talking about was not... he was just using the middle english name rather than the germanic. And I've already got a large amount of respect for the man because he does seem to know his stuff, be very well researched, and even cite a good number of his sources while giving a talk without notes.

And yeah, I figured getting a reply was dicy at best, since he included the email address in his book. But who knows... he remembered me from the last class back in the winter, which impressed me given the number of classes he must do in the course of a year and the time that's passed in between.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

PS: not four directions, four stages in the rune. All of Orion's work seems to be with seven directions.

[jarandhel.livejournal.com]

Also, one of the reasons I'm looking for more information on this is that Orion seemed (possibly purposefully) to have omitted some information in his description of this practice... he said that it involved bringing the serpent through the stages of the z, but the actual practice he described was more grab and toss... directly fire to earth. I think maybe he left out the intervening steps. Wanted to do a little digging in other sources before I email him and ask him that question directly.

PS: I got a copy of the new edition of his book this time. :)

(continued)

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Now, considering this was a particular workshop on fire magick (and I wasn't there, so I'm kinda going to rely on your comments as to what the hell went on there :D) the closest thing I can figure is some ritual based on Asgaya Gigagei's defeat of an uk'ten' (uk'ten' *are* considered "sky serpents" of a sort--essentially, they are the Cherokee dragon analogue; body of a (golden) timber rattler with red spots, horns like a deer, big honkin' quartz crystal with blood vein running through the centre of it in its forehead (which was used traditionally as a divination tool), wings like a bird of prey, claws like a panther, and they can breathe poisonous smoke and venom like the traditional Western dragon; they're considered, however, also to be *river* serpents specifically (there are Creek and Pawnee stories of a big blue uk'ten' living in the Mississippi, for instance) and even stories of people who became uk'ten' by eating strange eggs or fish living in water in tree stumps--think a particularly cantankerous, territorial Eastern dragon whose automatic response is "Get the hell off my lawn" and you get the idea).

Anyways, back to the point, in the story in question a mortal hunter finds Asgaya Gigagei and an uk'ten' (who is a threat to human populations) in a death struggle (with the uk'ten' trying to constrict Asgaya Gigagei, and Asgaya Gigagei wrestling with the uk'ten and trying to pin it down to give a death blow). The mortal hunter ends up killing the uk'ten' by shooting it in the seventh spot on its side (where its heart is), Asgaya Gigagei cuts out the divining crystal (which is probably where its "third eye" is and what the uk'ten' could use to see "threads" and spirit-stuff and all) and hands it to the mortal with instructions. Asgaya Gigagei also pulls off a scale and makes it into a charm for the hunter in particular.

Supposedly the Cherokee had the divining crystal (the uluñsuti) up till the time of the Trail of Tears, and there's other stuff around (like Creek stories and such) of people wrestling uk'ten', that's just the thing that comes to mind the most.

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Another possibility, as someone else has mentioned, is something in relation to "hoodoo" (essentially Southeastern US "hedge magick"--which is a mix of African, Southeastern Native American, and Western influences). I'll admit that most of what I know is the sorts of "hedge magick" practiced here, which are mostly a mix of Irish and Cherokee stuff, but deeper South (especially around Alabama to Louisiana and such) you start having a lot more influence from Creek indigenous religion and Voudon in particular, and it kind of cooks up into a "hedge magick gumbo" from there. Voudon also has specific serpents of wisdom (namely, Dhamballah) but as I am *not* a houngan or even a practitioner, I'll let someone who is and is more familiar with the lwa speak on that.