Pagan Legalities in America

[jarandhel]

Hey, does anyone here know where I can find information on the problems that pagan groups have had getting legally recognized as churches, due to differences from traditional christian church structure? I know I've read stuff on it before, but I'm drawing a total blank as to where and searches aren't finding anything relevant. I'm trying to use it as evidence in a debate I'm having in another blog, that using religion as a basis for laws, even in cases where it might seem harmless, ultimately hurts those of other religions.

Comments

[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

As far as this goes:

In KY, the main ways you can be recognised as a minister (for purposes of performing weddings and the like) are a) if you have graduated from a seminary of your faith and/or b) are ordained specifically by an established religion with fifty members or more.

Meaning, in essence, smaller eclectic groups of pagans in KY (which tend to be the rule here) pretty much have to get ULC "online" ordination to be able to legally perform weddings (because most pagan traditions generally do not have a formal hierarchy and/or are in small groups of less than fifty members).

Generally it's *far* less problematic to simply sign up at the ULC and become a "reverend" that way than try to prove fifty or more people in Kentucky follow a similar pagan path as you. (In fact, outside of Native American shamans, I don't know of any pagans in KY that have been "legalised" for purposes of marriage *outside* of getting a ULC "ordination".)

In KY, pretty much the only way to legally marry people *outside* of becoming a minister is becoming a justice of the peace (KY is not a "notary marriage" state; more on that below).

KY's situation, interestingly, has *improved* since a few years back; it used to be that, in addition to proving you had some form of ministerial ordination, you had to formally register at the county clerk's office and pay a yearly license fee. This was ruled unconstitutional after (ironically) a minister of a Baptist splinter group sued claiming that forcing ministers to register with the state was a violation of church and state; the courts agreed.

In KY (unlike some states), I have not generally heard of circuit courts (as far as obtaining the actual marriage certificate papers to marry someone) having problems with ULC ordination.

Most states that are not notary-marriage states do have very similar laws on the books regarding ministers needing to be formally ordained by a seminary or otherwise ordained by a church with an arbitrary number of members (usually 50-200); as *very* few pagan traditions even *have* fifty members or more in a single coven (which is usually how the laws are worded) and/or *very* few have *any* formal means of ordination (I think voudon and Native American shamanism are the two major exceptions to this (in that you can show you were initiated by a houngan and/or shaman, and in voudon and many Native American shamanism traditions this is even required by the tradition to show you are legit), OTO I *think* has a formal ordination procedure, but most pagan groups are pretty freeform).

Other states are even more ornerous; Nevada, New York and Alabama are particularly problematic even with ULC ordination (see http://www.ulc.org/index.php?destination=faqsMarriageLaws&numina=1051742515 for info on marriage laws). Some states require a physical church in the state, or a minimum threshold of members (the ULC site isn't so clear on THOSE requirements). Some states (including Virginia) require proof you are in "regular communion" with your church, which can be difficult with *most* pagan traditions. New York requires a physical meeting place due to a court decision. (In Nevada's case, there's pretty good info on the downright byzantine process one must undergo for ministers to be legally allowed to perform marriages at http://usmarriagelaws.com/html/minister_licensing.shtml)

North Carolina is also particularly ornerous, because apparently groups that do online or universal ordination (such as ULC or the Secular Humanist Church) are not recognised as legit *specifically* because they mail ordination certificates (see http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/faq.htm)

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[dogemperor.livejournal.com]

Ministerial regs (especially in states like Nevada or Alabama which either require filing multiple bits of paperwork from the ULC or have (probably unconstitutional) laws that specify "ministers of the Gospel" or some other Xtian-themed form of ministry) are sufficiently a pain in most states that many (if not most) pagans that live in a state that allows notary weddings (that is, allows a notary public to marry people much like how in KY a justice of the peace is legally allowed to marry people) the leader of a coven or a "free pagan" will simply register as a notary for purposes of performing marriages. Nevada and New York, two states that have particularly ornerous registration requirements for ministers, tend to have most pagans signing up as notaries as the procedure is far less problematic; Florida also tends to have a lot of pagans going the "notary" route for performing marriages. (In most states, you just have to take a simple test and file a yearly bond to be a notary public.)

Alabama is not a notary marriage state as far as I know. Then again, Alabama is pretty much de facto a fundamentalist Xtian theocracy making pretenses at being a US state :P I also have heard that Alabama is less problematic re ULC ordination, because it can be passed off as ostenably "Christian" (ULC is probably much closer to Unitarian Universalist, but much like UUs they can pass themselves off as "non-denominational" in states skewed towards Xian ordination.) I'm actually kind of surprised Alabama's marriage law is even in standing, seeing as it's so skewed towards Xian churches (the way it's worded, it's possibly iffy that an imam or rabbi could legally perform marriages!)...

Interestingly, Delaware, Maryland and Virginia *specifically* require religious ceremonies before marriage (I would think this would be problematic for atheists, and especially in Virginia because of their requirements to show you have a congregation et al or are a minister of an established church). This info from http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/new_york/index.shtml. Virginia is also not a notary marriage state--the only two ways you can legally be married there are by a minister or by a justice of the peace, and even with a JotP marriage there *still* has to be some sort of religious ceremony.

There's actually a pretty good summary on marriage laws at http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/index.shtml (as far as requirements for both those getting married and those doing the marrying). http://www.goddessmoon.org/Clergy/weddingshandfastings/state_laws.htm has some good info on marriage laws in a pagan context; http://forum.ulc.net/index.php?s=b8795676a48bc0f021165b0eae92e821&act=SF&f=13 has info specifically in regards to ULC marriages in their forum. http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-license-laws/ also has extensive info on marriage laws in various states; http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/officiants_requirements/index.shtml has fairly complete info on legal requirements by state for officiants.