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Some stuff going on, on a mailing list that I'm on... nothing too terribly important or anything, but some people's reactions have just made me want to scream and I really needed to vent about it before I'll be able to write coherent replies there.
1. Why is it that people don't realize pouncing on a new list member the moment she introduces herself and questioning her about what precisely she means by calling herself a particular fantasy term and demanding to know if she the exact definition from fantasy or only something moderately like that and if the latter why not call herself something else and giving a list of other terms for darkelves that could be used instead IS NOT BEING TOLERANT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? I have no problem with questioning the beliefs of others and openly exploring them, but starting mini-inquisitions of newbies when so far they've only given a very brief introduction of themselves is far from tolerant, let alone welcoming. It's RUDE.
2. Is it just me or is there something wrong when someone mocks someone else's boasted skills in the astral, claims to set up an astral construct for the person to view and identify in their own living room as a test, mocks the other person for failing, and then months later mentions in passing that their only knowledge of astral is anecdotal and that they have not and cannot yet go astral in this life? Maybe I'm missing something there, but that just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm not one to overlook it just because the person doing this is popular and the person he challenged isn't popular AND isn't someone I like at all.
3. Someone rejects the idea that writers could somehow channel information from other worlds or use details from their own otherkin past lives because, IF you take that idea to an extreme it supposedly implies that humans cannot create something on their own. Frankly I think that's an absurd way to extend the concept... the premise that some of the writers of fiction that otakukin have memories of did this in no way logically extends to the idea that all writers do that. Plus, even if it somehow did extend to that, this person did not give any evidence of that being untrue, merely that it was an unpleasant idea to him and so he rejected the truth of the first premise. Does that even make any sense as a line of reasoning?
4. This is the one that really gets under my skin... I make a statement about trends I see in the community as a whole and suggest that people in the community need to not jump to generalizations against groups of people based on their beliefs quite so much (part of an essay-type post which after I do some editing to remove references to a specific individual should be appearing on otherkin.net at Malcolm's request), and someone I am nominally friends with jumps on me saying that I need to read more of the writings of the handful of people involved in the thread and obnoxiously give me the "hint" that most of it is not on that list as if I was too new to the kin community and too unfamiliar with them as individuals to know that. And ends it by telling me to "Now please, go mentor people who need it." I'm not even sure how to reply to that, and because of it I've not replied to that list at all today... I think that right there is why I'm getting so damned sick of lists where there are no rules of conduct, even when I applaud their stated goals of promoting critical thinking. In my opinion, though, it never seems to work that way in practice... there are personal attacks like that every time there's a disagreement about anything, even when the rest of the thread is fairly calm even where it entails complex logical debate of ideas. I'm starting to seriously wonder if it's even worth it to stay on those forums, and more and more I'm thinking it's really not.
Maybe I'm taking this too personally, but I'm tired of people accusing me of preaching, mentoring, being sanctimonious, etc. just because I dare to have a differing opinion from them and dare to discuss it in public. I'm tired of being talked down to, or talked to dismissively, or even outright told to go state my opinions elsewhere by someone who disagrees with me... especially when, as in this case, that person is the damned moderator of the list. It may just be her stating what she'd like me to do, and it won't be enforced because the list is a no-rules anything goes zone, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel welcome on her list. And if I don't feel welcome on a list... why the hell am I subjecting myself to it? I think, after I write my replies (which will definately be after I sleep), it's time to kiss outlawkin goodbye and go back to focusing on wanderingpaths as a more positive expression of the critical thinking and real exploration idea. Outlawkin has had some cool discussions take place on it... but it feels a bit too much like a bunch of knights in armor bashing each other apart in order to prove who is most right than like people openly exploring beliefs and ideas together.
Addendum: If anyone reading this feels drawn to commiserate with me by telling me about their own unfortunate encounters with the people I've made reference to here... don't. Just fucking don't.
1. Why is it that people don't realize pouncing on a new list member the moment she introduces herself and questioning her about what precisely she means by calling herself a particular fantasy term and demanding to know if she the exact definition from fantasy or only something moderately like that and if the latter why not call herself something else and giving a list of other terms for darkelves that could be used instead IS NOT BEING TOLERANT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? I have no problem with questioning the beliefs of others and openly exploring them, but starting mini-inquisitions of newbies when so far they've only given a very brief introduction of themselves is far from tolerant, let alone welcoming. It's RUDE.
2. Is it just me or is there something wrong when someone mocks someone else's boasted skills in the astral, claims to set up an astral construct for the person to view and identify in their own living room as a test, mocks the other person for failing, and then months later mentions in passing that their only knowledge of astral is anecdotal and that they have not and cannot yet go astral in this life? Maybe I'm missing something there, but that just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm not one to overlook it just because the person doing this is popular and the person he challenged isn't popular AND isn't someone I like at all.
3. Someone rejects the idea that writers could somehow channel information from other worlds or use details from their own otherkin past lives because, IF you take that idea to an extreme it supposedly implies that humans cannot create something on their own. Frankly I think that's an absurd way to extend the concept... the premise that some of the writers of fiction that otakukin have memories of did this in no way logically extends to the idea that all writers do that. Plus, even if it somehow did extend to that, this person did not give any evidence of that being untrue, merely that it was an unpleasant idea to him and so he rejected the truth of the first premise. Does that even make any sense as a line of reasoning?
4. This is the one that really gets under my skin... I make a statement about trends I see in the community as a whole and suggest that people in the community need to not jump to generalizations against groups of people based on their beliefs quite so much (part of an essay-type post which after I do some editing to remove references to a specific individual should be appearing on otherkin.net at Malcolm's request), and someone I am nominally friends with jumps on me saying that I need to read more of the writings of the handful of people involved in the thread and obnoxiously give me the "hint" that most of it is not on that list as if I was too new to the kin community and too unfamiliar with them as individuals to know that. And ends it by telling me to "Now please, go mentor people who need it." I'm not even sure how to reply to that, and because of it I've not replied to that list at all today... I think that right there is why I'm getting so damned sick of lists where there are no rules of conduct, even when I applaud their stated goals of promoting critical thinking. In my opinion, though, it never seems to work that way in practice... there are personal attacks like that every time there's a disagreement about anything, even when the rest of the thread is fairly calm even where it entails complex logical debate of ideas. I'm starting to seriously wonder if it's even worth it to stay on those forums, and more and more I'm thinking it's really not.
Maybe I'm taking this too personally, but I'm tired of people accusing me of preaching, mentoring, being sanctimonious, etc. just because I dare to have a differing opinion from them and dare to discuss it in public. I'm tired of being talked down to, or talked to dismissively, or even outright told to go state my opinions elsewhere by someone who disagrees with me... especially when, as in this case, that person is the damned moderator of the list. It may just be her stating what she'd like me to do, and it won't be enforced because the list is a no-rules anything goes zone, but it sure as hell doesn't make me feel welcome on her list. And if I don't feel welcome on a list... why the hell am I subjecting myself to it? I think, after I write my replies (which will definately be after I sleep), it's time to kiss outlawkin goodbye and go back to focusing on wanderingpaths as a more positive expression of the critical thinking and real exploration idea. Outlawkin has had some cool discussions take place on it... but it feels a bit too much like a bunch of knights in armor bashing each other apart in order to prove who is most right than like people openly exploring beliefs and ideas together.
Addendum: If anyone reading this feels drawn to commiserate with me by telling me about their own unfortunate encounters with the people I've made reference to here... don't. Just fucking don't.
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===One reason I never went on the that list is because it is coming from the wrong starting premise...and it is one that they themselves cannot follow.
===Dish it out...take it. They say the list is for those that can dish it out AND take it...but they can only "dish it out"
===Imagine how much of a melt-down would happen if I was there. They would self-destruct, as they cannot take anyone making them look like the children they are. They play grown-up...but they have never really dealt with the issues that keep them from being able to cope with anything more than high-school level relationships. Look at the history, look at the people....and see if I am on target here.
===The dynamics are meant to be high-school....dressed up as if they are really adults.
===Not all people over a certain age are really adult/mature.AWARE of themselves. Many simply know the right clothes, the right words...but they do not have the deeper comprehension to be able to do more with it.
well said
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I can sympathise, at that. And, well, I got reamed a bit m'self...maybe it's just me, but (STRICTLY IMHO) if someone is being THAT damned disruptive...but that's just me, though.
I myself am starting to become...jaded regarding lists in general, and...irritated re certain segments of the otherkin community, but that's me. Mostly because I'm a cantankerous bastard :p
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Because, I would presume, at some point, you saw something there that you needed or enjoyed. Whether or not you're welcome, if there's still something there that you need or enjoy, you might not be able to find it somewhere else.
If, however, you've moved past that point, then it probably is time to move on. Whatever you choose, I hope it works out in the least frustrating way possible.
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But it has, and I really feel that continuing to subject myself to the list under those circumstances is pointless. I'll keep working on wanderpaths instead... in many ways it's been patterened to take the best of the critical thinking and open debate stuff from lists like outlawkin and merge it with rules and structure which will promote true exploration and keep out personal attacks. *pokes anyone reading this who thinks that sounds like a good idea and invites them to check out the list* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wanderingpaths/
Re: well said
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Re: well said
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Re: well said
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